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  • Speakers staging tuning

    in my quest for utopia in my room I am trying many ways to attain both sound and staging.
    Staging has more variables then sound it seems.
    Meaning I can get to good sound faster then imaging
    one of my new found issues is tubes effecting it.
    Especially the rectifier tube. My dac uses only one but it's effects are profound in any ways.
    I was think while we have many systems here we do have a commonality in music. Many of us have the same tunes.
    Would it be useful to post a tune and how it's imaging varies for us. ?
    analog stuff.
    otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
    otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
    sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
    new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
    thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
    thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
    kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
    phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
    speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
    mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
    digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
    Dacs lampi various

  • #2
    Soundstaging is pretty dependent on speaker placement and room treatments. When I moved into a new house with a smaller dedicated room, it took me about 5 months to get everything dialed in.

    There are a couple of cuts I use to check staging. One is "Old Love" from Clapton Unplugged. This cut pretty well recreates the ambience and space of a small club. His voice is a little right of center and so is his guitar solo. Chuck Leavell's piano near the end should be laid out to the far left with front to back depth like it's angled toward the rear corner.

    The other is Diana Krall"s "I've Got You Under My Skin" from When I Look In Your Eyes. Her voice is focused in the center front with one layer of her combo spread out behind her and then the orchestra further back. Once you get used to hearing this song you will remember where all of the instruments are placed from left to right and front to back.
    Thiel 7.2s, Manley NeoClassic 250s, Wadia 850, MIT Oracle V3 speaker cables, MIT MI-350 Oracle interconnects, Black Diamond Racing Shelves and Cones in a dedicated room with ASC Tube Traps, Room Tunes and 3 X 20 amp dedicated circuits.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks very much for the help. I'll try those tracks. I just moved my speakers even further from the back walls now at 15 feet as I sit 17 feet from them. Star staging seems very good and stable as before it moved at times before. I have depth and height with side to side. I always had sounds from behind
      but what I am looking for is just where sounds should be and your tracks and post will help.
      Thanks
      analog stuff.
      otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
      otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
      sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
      new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
      thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
      thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
      kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
      phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
      speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
      mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
      digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
      Dacs lampi various

      Comment


      • #4
        I agree that soundstaging is pretty much all about optomizing the dispersion in your room, and that means proper placement and room treatments. Some speakers are better at this than others, but just about all speakers can do it to some extent. For speaker placement, you may be surprised at how a 1/2 inch difference can make or break the soundstage. I found a laser tape measure that works well for me to get that precision. Mine's a Bosche, but there are many of them out there, and they don't have to be expensive.

        Then there's room treatments. Many, many articles exist about different methods that could work for you. Live end - dead end, first reflection points, center fill, dispersion vs absorption and where you should concentrate each for your type of speaker, etc. You have to do some reading on this and try them out to see what might work best for your room. Every one is different so what works for one person may not work for another.

        One often overlooked phenomonon is that the quality of your bass will most definitely affect the quality of your treble. I know it sounds weird, but better bass makes the top end sound better too, and will improve your soundstage. Once you have that tweeter dialed in try and improve your bass and you may be surprised at the additional improvements that you can achieve.

        Most of all, enjoy the process.

        Comment


        • MylesBAstor
          MylesBAstor commented
          Editing a comment
          Alon might say just the opposite. If there's a problem with the bass, look at the tweeter.

      • #5
        I am using my music and Gary's speaker setup from his website also some of his music tracks. I had to move my woofer towers for bass being to heavy and now my imaging is off again. My speakers are the IRS V. Also tubes effect the imaging as well. Is a massive task
        I was by a friend who had two book shelf speakers in his basement rig all music was dead center now speakers or little to none came from each speaker. But that's not staging either for me a stage is the entire band each in there space. Of course recordings vary as well.
        Thanks
        analog stuff.
        otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
        otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
        sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
        new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
        thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
        thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
        kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
        phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
        speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
        mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
        digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
        Dacs lampi various

        Comment


        • #6
          Originally posted by Alrainbow View Post
          I am using my music and Gary's speaker setup from his website also some of his music tracks. I had to move my woofer towers for bass being to heavy and now my imaging is off again. My speakers are the IRS V. Also tubes effect the imaging as well. Is a massive task
          I was by a friend who had two book shelf speakers in his basement rig all music was dead center now speakers or little to none came from each speaker. But that's not staging either for me a stage is the entire band each in there space. Of course recordings vary as well.
          Thanks
          I think you have speakers with a real double edged sword. Their adjustability is both a blessing and a disguise. I don't have the hugest amount of experience with the IRSs but do have some time spent with RS1bs. Now speakers setup depends upon many factors as Mike and BobM pointed out.

          I think that I would bring the midrange panels out a bit from the front wall and as you know, an inch or less with the woofer towers can make all the difference in the world. And for me, imaging and staging begin with proper foundation. As I remember, you can also adjust for the crossover frequency between the mids and towers too? Have you tried with the spacing between the midrange panels? Or treating first reflection points?

          I normally start with a recording with good centerfill and then play with balancing transparency vs. centerfill. Too close and lose transparency; too far apart and lose centerfill. Now one thing that people don't talk about is imaging on the outside of the stage and not every component or front-end can render it with the same aplomb. For instance, the Atlas cartridge is a step about other cartridges that I've had here in this regard. Interestingly, it's not something that I listened for but the effect was unmistakeable. Heard this effect with the Atlas and true too for the Atlas SL.
          Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
          Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
          ________________________________________

          -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
          -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
          -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
          -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
          -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
          -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
          -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
          -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
          -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
          -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

          Comment


          • #7
            Originally posted by Bobm View Post
            I agree that soundstaging is pretty much all about optomizing the dispersion in your room, and that means proper placement and room treatments. Some speakers are better at this than others, but just about all speakers can do it to some extent. For speaker placement, you may be surprised at how a 1/2 inch difference can make or break the soundstage. I found a laser tape measure that works well for me to get that precision. Mine's a Bosche, but there are many of them out there, and they don't have to be expensive.

            Then there's room treatments. Many, many articles exist about different methods that could work for you. Live end - dead end, first reflection points, center fill, dispersion vs absorption and where you should concentrate each for your type of speaker, etc. You have to do some reading on this and try them out to see what might work best for your room. Every one is different so what works for one person may not work for another.

            One often overlooked phenomonon is that the quality of your bass will most definitely affect the quality of your treble. I know it sounds weird, but better bass makes the top end sound better too, and will improve your soundstage. Once you have that tweeter dialed in try and improve your bass and you may be surprised at the additional improvements that you can achieve.

            Most of all, enjoy the process.
            Hi Bob! Welcome to audionirvana and glad to have you aboard!

            Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
            Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
            ________________________________________

            -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
            -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
            -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
            -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
            -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
            -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
            -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
            -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
            -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
            -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

            Comment


            • #8
              Thanks. I had it pretty good until I turned the woofer towers towards the side walls to help lower some booming . When I did all hell broke loose . As for an inch yes it seems it's like that. Imaging is amazing if it's right way past the outside of them. Now I posted about recti tubes for this reason . Having in my position two lampi models and my msb I bounce back and forth for tuning purposes. What if I tell you with the right recti the lampi,s outperform my msb Ina few ways . One being staging with some music I clearly hear beyond the outside of the speakers. While,the msb is stable in many ways and gives me good staging that makes sounds up down , left right and my holy grail is front to back . This is what I love. Over the weekend I do agin as Gary's tools instruct . This is very aggravating and hard as there combined weight is about 1500 pounds .
              Before I turned the towers at walls slightly I moved my couch back and up. I can stand as well . The bass bump is huge I need to be about over 20 feet away for it to lower . I do not want bass traps so I will keep moving. Thanks to all who have given me there time and thoughts.
              I plan to try more over the weekend .
              analog stuff.
              otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
              otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
              sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
              new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
              thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
              thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
              kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
              phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
              speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
              mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
              digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
              Dacs lampi various

              Comment


              • #9
                Originally posted by Alrainbow View Post
                Thanks. I had it pretty good until I turned the woofer towers towards the side walls to help lower some booming . When I did all hell broke loose . As for an inch yes it seems it's like that. Imaging is amazing if it's right way past the outside of them. Now I posted about recti tubes for this reason . Having in my position two lampi models and my msb I bounce back and forth for tuning purposes. What if I tell you with the right recti the lampi,s outperform my msb Ina few ways . One being staging with some music I clearly hear beyond the outside of the speakers. While,the msb is stable in many ways and gives me good staging that makes sounds up down , left right and my holy grail is front to back . This is what I love. Over the weekend I do agin as Gary's tools instruct . This is very aggravating and hard as there combined weight is about 1500 pounds .
                Before I turned the towers at walls slightly I moved my couch back and up. I can stand as well . The bass bump is huge I need to be about over 20 feet away for it to lower . I do not want bass traps so I will keep moving. Thanks to all who have given me there time and thoughts.
                I plan to try more over the weekend .
                What adjustments other than level do you have for the towers? Where are you hearing the boominess? Lower, mid or upper bass area?
                Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
                Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
                ________________________________________

                -Zellaton Plural Evo speakers
                -Goldmund Telos 300 stereo amp
                -Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier
                -Doshi EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostage
                -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
                -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
                -Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, Fuuga Mk. 2, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MutechHayabusa, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
                -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
                -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 6, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies and Ensemble Power Cords
                -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz 3 racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA OHIO Class 2.1+ platforms.

                Comment


                • #10
                  None except for the bass this has a few
                  one is level
                  another is contour that moves the crossover point as well as curve
                  then there is a variable cross over point
                  now there is a mid tweeter amp imp matching that adjusts the cross over point of those amps. It it is used to keep the lower bass out of this mid towers.
                  There is also a tape inside the exterior cross over that lowers or raises the lower mid drivers.
                  My issue is purely the bass towers

                  Purely bass towers. The mid tweeter towers are fine. When I do room sweeps it's pretty good. But below 70 things happen Ina big way. At one point I had a 12 DB boost.Amazing. But image is first for me. But S I fix that next is the bass. But as I move them the image becomes unstable. Over the weekend I am going to do the genesis setup again with some one so they can move things.
                  If gp mkre away as 20 feet or more the imaging gels better
                  but I wow t to sit at about 17 feet away it's difficult at the least
                  analog stuff.
                  otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 made new by soren
                  otari mtr 10 2 track 1/4 1/2 combo made new by soren
                  sota sapphire used eminent tech ver 2 arm
                  new sota nova table has magnetic levitation platter and full speed control and latest motor same arm as above
                  thorens td124 sme ver 2 arm
                  thorens td125 sme ver 2 arm
                  kenwood direct drive sme ver 2 arm
                  phono preamp Ml no 25 all re capped
                  speakers cust infinity IRS V , new caps and LPS , magnets etc.
                  mark levivson pre no 26 amps no 33
                  digital three cust servers , win ser 2016 , AO
                  Dacs lampi various

                  Comment

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