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  • Sub Bass

    Sub bass as in 60hz and lower...many speaker systems can do it and at least as many can't, having lived with a few recently that do go to at least 25hz I'm finding it hard to get along without it. I've been toying with the idea of acquiring a high sensitivity/efficiency speaker system, what keeps me from jumping in is the dearth of systems that do HEF and low, low bass.

    How important is sub bass io everyone?
    Simon Yorke S10 | My Sonic Lab Eminent GL | AcousticPlan PhonoMaster | Wadia X32 | Innuous ZEN Mini Mk II | Valvet Soulshine2 | Linear Tube Audio ZOTL10 MkII | Avantgarde Uno Fino XD

    "One of the great challenges of this world: Knowing enough about a subject to think you are right, but not enough about the subject to know you're wrong" - Neil deGrasse Tyson

  • #2
    Vitally important to me as music lives and breathes in the bottom two octaves. It's what pressurizes your room, lets you know the size of a venue, and lets you 'feel' the air of the recording space. Those that say the bottom 1.5 octaves are not important are those who have never heard them reproduced correctly. Once you have had it and see/hear what it brings to the table, how do you give it up?
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 table with flywheel, SME 3012R arm, SME 312S arm, Lyra Etna SL and Dynavector XV-1S cartridges, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 tape deck, Ampex 350 repros, Roon Nucleus Plus server, PS Audio DSJ DAC, ARC Ref 6 pre, ARC Ref 75 amp, JBL 4345 speakers, and Def Tech Ref subs.

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    • #3
      Low bass isn't that clear cut Bob, sure its great to have "real" low bass but I've been content with 50 hz for years, its plenty if its quality. I augmented my system with subs and they definitely enhance the sound with some music but I don't feel like I'm missing much with the subs off either. HE speakers bring a lot to the table, definitely worth your while to search them out and there are some very sensitive vintage ones capable of 30 hz. Listening to music on a low watt SET + HE speaker system is a very different experience from what you're used to hearing in a typical high end system.

      david
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      • #4
        Depends on what you are listening to. Large scale music just seems dead without that bottom octave. Finding a replacement speaker can be an exercise in frustration too. Just been there and done that.

        There are options. A decent sub or subs might do. That Audio Kinesis concept of multiple small subs (4) to prevent a single bad room node has merit and the price includes the sub amp. There are literally dozens of other sub brands out there.

        Interestingly, lower priced speakers have seen significant improvements in recent years as some companies are starting to respond to the need for a quality full range speaker in less than a five figure range. Even the lower end of the four figure range.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by mep View Post
          Vitally important to me as music lives and breathes in the bottom two octaves. It's what pressurizes your room, lets you know the size of a venue, and lets you 'feel' the air of the recording space. Those that say the bottom 1.5 octaves are not important are those who have never heard them reproduced correctly. Once you have had it and see/hear what it brings to the table, how do you give it up?
          I share your opinion, I use active subs in my system, taking care of anything below 45 hz, if I switch them of, it is clear what is missing, its air, venue size, real life in the music.
          That's a lot to miss out on, I think.

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          • #6
            Definitely want it, but can't say I can't live without it.

            Most (if not all) High Efficiency speakers I've seen have active subs for those last few octaves. Which ones are you looking at, Rob? I loved the Voltis!
            Kronos Sparta -> Trinity Phono -> Trinity Pre -> CH Precision A1 -> Magico S7s

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            • #7
              Originally posted by allenh View Post
              Definitely want it, but can't say I can't live without it.

              Most (if not all) High Efficiency speakers I've seen have active subs for those last few octaves. Which ones are you looking at, Rob? I loved the Voltis!

              if you're referring to the avantegarde's i've heard the early duos and the bass integration, when it works, can be good but the bottom octave and maybe two are not in sync or I should say way down in volume. You heard the latest Duos at Mike B's what did you think about the bass?
              Last edited by Rob; 02-26-2016, 10:50 PM.
              Simon Yorke S10 | My Sonic Lab Eminent GL | AcousticPlan PhonoMaster | Wadia X32 | Innuous ZEN Mini Mk II | Valvet Soulshine2 | Linear Tube Audio ZOTL10 MkII | Avantgarde Uno Fino XD

              "One of the great challenges of this world: Knowing enough about a subject to think you are right, but not enough about the subject to know you're wrong" - Neil deGrasse Tyson

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              • david k
                david k commented
                Editing a comment
                Bass and bass integration is a problem today for most horn designs I heard. The other problem is sensitivity, they're just not efficient enough full range to be driven with low wattage tube amps that they mate best with so they come with the 1/2 active compromise that will never integrate properly with anything but a similar amp driving the other half of the speaker, i.e. class D amps for most of them. This defeats the purpose for wanting efficient speakers to begin with.

                david

              • Bill Hart
                Bill Hart commented
                Editing a comment
                I've reached as happy a medium as I think I can get with mine- push the volume or crossover too high on the woofers and you get more bass at the cost of loss of coherence. Get them balanced right with the midrange horn and they are a tad bass shy. What's interesting is how the associated equipment affects this. When I was running Lamm's L2 line stage, the bass was more reticent than it is with the Veloce. And, in either case, when a record had deep bass, the system could deliver it, but it doesn't have that thwack that some bigger dynamic systems are capable of; on the other hand, I suspect some of that isn't super deep bass- the chest denting thwack of a triggered kick drum is probably hitting a bunch of frequencies, and a 'normal' kick drum- not sure what frequency gives it the punch, but my suspicion is, it's higher in frequency than subterranean. I haven't heard the latest crop of AvG's and am not sure I'd go in that direction if and when, but who knows? Putting time and effort into the placement of the Duos and dialing them in pays off big time. (I've had mine since 2006 or 7 and it took me a while to get them 'right').
                Last edited by Bill Hart; 02-29-2016, 09:19 PM.

            • #8
              Originally posted by Rob View Post


              if you're referring to the avantegarde's i've heard the early duos and the bass integration, when it works, can be good but the bottom octave and maybe two are not in sync or I should say way down in volume. You heard the latest Duos at Mike B's what did you think about the bass?

              The Duos have adjustable bass as you know. Mike had it turned down in his room as that's his preference, so hard for me to assess.

              Kronos Sparta -> Trinity Phono -> Trinity Pre -> CH Precision A1 -> Magico S7s

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