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Treating First vs. Second Reflection Points

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  • Treating First vs. Second Reflection Points

    I was playing with the newly arrived Stillpoint Aperture Gen. 2 panels and stands today. This time around I ordered the stands to go with the panels so the speakers could be situated (avoiding hanging the panels on the wall) at what I thought would be a more advantageous position (and height) at the first reflection point. After all was said and done, the result was an unmitigated disaster. The soundstage moved forward and everything sounded way too lean; in particular the bass lost all its weight and sounded like a skelton of itself. So I took the panels off the stands and placed them where the original panels had been and voila, all was right with the world. But interestingly the panels sounded best at the second, not the first reflection point.

    I harken back to the Wilson Audio philosophy of spacing the two speakers wide enough apart so they don’t interact with each other. So I am left wondering if the reflection from the opposite Speaker is more damaging to the sound than the first reflection of the speaker on the same side??? Any thoughts, experiences or suggestions?
    Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
    Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
    ________________________________________

    -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
    -cj 40th Anniversary ART300 monoblock amplifiers
    -Merrill Audio Elemente 116 monoblock amplifiers
    -cj GAT preamplifier Series 2 preamplifier
    -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
    -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
    -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
    -Lyra Atlas SL, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
    -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
    -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Allnic cables, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, MG Audio, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies Power Cords
    -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

  • #2
    The second reflection point is the most damaging. Reflected sound from the opposite channel speaker is mixed with the direct sound of the main speaker. It is most damaging in small rooms where the total distance of the reflected sound is less than 20 feet or the distance sound travels in 20 MS or less. The ear-brain gene-splices the right and left channels together due to the HAAS Effect and really messes with the sound.

    The Haas effect or the Precedence Effect is a Psychoacoustic Effect described by Helmut Haas as the ability of our ears to localize sounds coming from anywhere around us.

    That's why I look carefully at the first and second reflection point. In some cases, the third reflection point can be significant.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	KOSMIC ROOM 1.jpg Views:	2 Size:	239.0 KB ID:	91649

    Comment


    • #3
      This always sounds like it should be easy to do but never is . To make the room sound better I usually end up pouring some Rum in a glass with ice not as long term as what you are doing but it is easy. Good Luck because I thick Luck is the big one in getting a room to sound good.

      Comment


      • #4
        I used to have ASC panels at both the first and second reflection points in my small room. I then hired Jim Smith to voice my system to the room. He told me that the two panels at the second reflection points were not necessary. We removed them, he spent the next day voicing my system, and the sound improved by quite a bit. I have not gone back to revisit this as my system is in our formal living room and the extra panels really didn't look very good. If I had a dedicated listening room, I might reconsider. I can see why one would not want reflections from the right speaker to bounce off of the left wall, and visa versa. Perhaps my rack and furniture break this up enough for it not to be much of an issue.

        SME 30/12A, SME V-12, MySonicLab Signature Gold, Air Tight Supreme, Pass Labs XA160.5, XP-22, XP-27, Magico Q3

        Comment


        • MylesBAstor
          MylesBAstor commented
          Editing a comment
          You many want to update your signature Peter.

      • #5
        More basic and maybe affecting the sound as much as reflection point's location is the absorber/reflector itself. Playing with absorbers/reflectors for some 40 years I've only found one, found recently, that really works and does not just muffle the sound. Why I don't know --but they work. And they hang or stand on their own. They are curved panels made by Acoustic Geometry. I cured a two year long unwanted sound in my playback system, which I thought was my speakers, by putting them (crudely) behind and between and back 4 feet from my speakers. Instant improvement. Most companies do not know how to make panels. Even the famous ones. See this link: https://www.acousticgeometry.com/pro...urve-diffusor/
        JLH

        Comment


        • #6
          Originally posted by jonathanhorwich View Post
          More basic and maybe affecting the sound as much as reflection point's location is the absorber/reflector itself. Playing with absorbers/reflectors for some 40 years I've only found one, found recently, that really works and does not just muffle the sound. Why I don't know --but they work. And they hang or stand on their own. They are curved panels made by Acoustic Geometry. I cured a two year long unwanted sound in my playback system, which I thought was my speakers, by putting them (crudely) behind and between and back 4 feet from my speakers. Instant improvement. Most companies do not know how to make panels. Even the famous ones. See this link: https://www.acousticgeometry.com/pro...urve-diffusor/
          Thanks for the suggestion!

          Stillpoint's Aperture panels are a little different from other products on the market being both an absorber, diffuser and resonator.

          http://www.stillpoints.us/index.php/...rry_and__Cream

          As I understand, the Aperture panels were designed by the man who produced the original Sonex panels. According to Bruce Jacobs of Stillpoints, "t
          he new panels (I'm calling them Gen. 2) have better fit and finish and trap from larger area but otherwise sound the same." Nice thing is that they don't break the bank at $800/panel allowing a modular approach to addressing room acoustics.

          They really do work in my system though haven't gone all out. I just wanted a simple acoustical approach addressing reflection points. I did get an third panel and will try that again between the speakers against the front wall. What I hear, among other things in my system, is a reduction in a sense of business and a better sense of clarity to the sound.
          Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
          Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
          ________________________________________

          -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
          -cj 40th Anniversary ART300 monoblock amplifiers
          -Merrill Audio Elemente 116 monoblock amplifiers
          -cj GAT preamplifier Series 2 preamplifier
          -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
          -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
          -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
          -Lyra Atlas SL, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
          -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
          -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Allnic cables, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, MG Audio, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies Power Cords
          -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

          Comment


          • jonathanhorwich
            jonathanhorwich commented
            Editing a comment
            Thanks Myles. As a note the Acoustic Geometry panels are $400.00 for about a four foot high panel. Making a good panel is hit and miss and hopefully Stillpoints makes a good one. For me with the Acoustic Geometry the sound was more natural while being clearer. Glad the Stillpoints worked for you.

        • #7
          Originally posted by Joe Pittman View Post
          The second reflection point is the most damaging. Reflected sound from the opposite channel speaker is mixed with the direct sound of the main speaker. It is most damaging in small rooms where the total distance of the reflected sound is less than 20 feet or the distance sound travels in 20 MS or less. The ear-brain gene-splices the right and left channels together due to the HAAS Effect and really messes with the sound.

          The Haas effect or the Precedence Effect is a Psychoacoustic Effect described by Helmut Haas as the ability of our ears to localize sounds coming from anywhere around us.

          That's why I look carefully at the first and second reflection point. In some cases, the third reflection point can be significant.

          Click image for larger version Name:	KOSMIC ROOM 1.jpg Views:	2 Size:	239.0 KB ID:	91649
          Thanks Joe for answering my question and another that I didn't ask eg. how size of the room affects the results. I suspected that these reflection points might be more of an issue in smaller rooms.
          Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
          Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
          ________________________________________

          -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
          -cj 40th Anniversary ART300 monoblock amplifiers
          -Merrill Audio Elemente 116 monoblock amplifiers
          -cj GAT preamplifier Series 2 preamplifier
          -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
          -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
          -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
          -Lyra Atlas SL, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
          -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
          -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Allnic cables, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, MG Audio, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies Power Cords
          -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

          Comment


          • #8
            Originally posted by PeterA View Post
            I used to have ASC panels at both the first and second reflection points in my small room. I then hired Jim Smith to voice my system to the room. He told me that the two panels at the second reflection points were not necessary. We removed them, he spent the next day voicing my system, and the sound improved by quite a bit. I have not gone back to revisit this as my system is in our formal living room and the extra panels really didn't look very good. If I had a dedicated listening room, I might reconsider. I can see why one would not want reflections from the right speaker to bounce off of the left wall, and visa versa. Perhaps my rack and furniture break this up enough for it not to be much of an issue.
            Did Jim voice your system with the Q5s or Minis?
            Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator
            Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com
            ________________________________________

            -Magico S5 Mk.2 speakers with SPod feet
            -cj 40th Anniversary ART300 monoblock amplifiers
            -Merrill Audio Elemente 116 monoblock amplifiers
            -cj GAT preamplifier Series 2 preamplifier
            -Doshi V3.0 phonostage
            -VPI Vanquish direct-drive turntable
            -VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy dual pivot tonearm, VPI 12-inch 3D Fat Boy gimballed and SAT LM-12 arm
            -Lyra Atlas SL, Fuuga, vdh Colibri Master Signature, MOFI Master Tracker, Sumiko Songbird cartridges
            -Technics RS1506 with Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi V3.0 tape stage (balanced)
            -Assorted cables including Transparent XL Gen. 5, Allnic cables, Skogrand, Viero, Kubala-Sosna, MG Audio, Audience Au24SX, Genesis Advanced Technologies Power Cords
            -Accessories including Stillpoint Aperture panels, Cathedral Sound panels, Furutech NCF Nano AC receptacles; Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC, Symposium ISIS and SRA Craz racks, Audiodharma Cable Cooker, Symposium Ultra and assorted SRA platforms.

            Comment


            • #9
              Originally posted by MylesBAstor View Post

              Did Jim voice your system with the Q5s or Minis?
              I have both the Q3s and Mini IIs. The former are currently set up. Jim Smith voiced the system with the Mini IIs.
              SME 30/12A, SME V-12, MySonicLab Signature Gold, Air Tight Supreme, Pass Labs XA160.5, XP-22, XP-27, Magico Q3

              Comment

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